DCR Commissioner forced to resign over snow removal

[John F. Carr]

The Commissioner of the Department of Conservation and Recreation
resigned after the DCR failed to remove snow on sidewalks along
VFW Parkway in Boston and four high school students were hit by
a truck while walking in the road on the way to school.

<http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/02/04/romney_asks_for_resignation_of_recreation_commissioner/>

[D. Kirkpatrick]

Post by John F. Carr
The Commissioner of the Department of Conservation and Recreation
resigned after the DCR failed to remove snow on sidewalks along
VFW Parkway in Boston and four high school students were hit by
a truck while walking in the road on the way to school.

I was quoted in the Bulletin Newspaper, a free giveaway in the West
Roxbury area regarding the snow issues at the High School. That
article appeared in this week's edition just 2 days before those kids
got whacked. I postumated that this might happen sooner than later.

I dropped my own son off there just 45 minutes before the kids were
hit. The snow banks at theend of the driveway at VFW parkway have
been so high that he average car cannot see oncoming traffic, which is
already at a curve. Getting out into the VFW there is a dicey
proposition daily.

The highway there is a speedway and kids don't just have to climb over
snow banks - they have to walk in the already-narowed streets along
with the cars.

The city provides school busses at special pool pick up points for
high schoolers but often many kids find it quicker and easier to hop
the MBTA to get there. In some cases kids would have to take a bus
1-2 miles or more in the WRONG direction to get the free school bus,
so they get a T pass and use that instead. The schools issue them
passes for free that are good during the school day and up to 8 pm.

The High School itself is set about 750 or more feet from the roadway
and has a long driveway that is ALWAYS poorly plowed and most oftena
sheet of ice that the kids have to walk on with the bus and auto
traffic that is entering and leaving the school. They NEVER shovel
the single sidewalk that parallels on eside of the driveway.

The nearest MBTA busses still require kids to walk a good 10-15
minutes the rest of the way tot he school.

The #37 (Baker & Vermont) is one. Kids get off and walk a driveway
and down a dirt embankement to the rear of a nursing home and cut
through the parking lot to the VFW parkway. They then have to cross
the highway.

Others take the #36 and get off at one of 2 locations. The short (VA
Hospital) bus they get off at Spring and Baker and walk up Baker to a
stairwell that brings them to the rear of the Stop & Shop store and
they walk through that parking lot to VFW to cross.

If the bus terminates beyond the VA Hospital at the Rivemoor
Industrial area, kids take that to near the end of the line and cut
through the rear of the Home Depot store and then under a bridge that
is used by the Needham commuter rail line. This is not a formal
underpass but a train bridge over a dried up gully that used to drain
wetlands in that area. Its been dried out for many years but is just
high enough a pass for kids to get under it to the school. This is
actually the closest location that the kids have to access any MBTA
bus line. Many kids use this in the mornings and afternoons except in
the worse of weather, and even then there are a few diehards.

Today's accident was a terrible tragedy but one any person could see
coming. I'm surprised that it didn't happen earlier.

As to the crosswalk there which was so publicly shoveledout on the TV
news by state crews, the traffic light there has been out on and off,
and even then people approaching on the VFW parkway in either
direction don't see the signals until they are right on top of them.
Partly due to the fact that this is a tree-lined parkway, the commuter
rail bridge which prevents seeing the signals on approach, and poor
signage.

Unlike most streets that have flasshing yellow lights denoting the
approach to a school zone with speed restrictions, there are no such
lights on the VFW parkway.

These families should sue and sue big.

As to the commissioner getting fired - sacrificial lamb. That is not
the person who makes thedecision where to plow and what sidewalk to
clear. I think we all know that.

DMK

[John F. Carr]

Post by D. Kirkpatrick
Unlike most streets that have flasshing yellow lights denoting the
approach to a school zone with speed restrictions, there are no such
lights on the VFW parkway.

Resarch from the west coast found that flashing lights slow traffic
about 5 MPH when the average speed is significantly above the school
zone speed limit.

Post by D. Kirkpatrick
These families should sue and sue big.

One is generally not liable in Massachusetts for failure to clear
natural accumulation of snow and ice. The driver's insurance will
probably pay policy limits as a settlement.

Post by D. Kirkpatrick
As to the commissioner getting fired - sacrificial lamb. That is not
the person who makes thedecision where to plow and what sidewalk to
clear. I think we all know that.

If she lied to the Governor about roads being cleared, as the first
Globe article suggests but does not explicitly say, then firing her
was proper.

Based on her reported work experience it seems like she was not a
patronage employee.

Here is today's Herald article:
<http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=67002>
and Globe article:
<http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/02/05/students_hit_on_parkway_official_quits/?pg=full>

[John F. Carr]

Post by John F. Carr
If she lied to the Governor about roads being cleared, as the first
Globe article suggests but does not explicitly say, then firing her
was proper.

According to today's Globe the false reports came from another employee,
who resigned yesterday:

<http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/02/11/two_more_senior_officials_ousted_at_state_parks_agency/>

[Sal's Dad]

As usual, there is plenty of blame to spread around.

Why weren't sidewalks and crossings cleared?
Why no safe designated routes to school?
Why no crossing guard or police presence?
Why no school zone signage/signals?
Why did the Superintendent re-open schools if there was no safe passage?
Why didn't principal, who was the person most directly aware and responsible
for the safety of his students, take a real stand?

For once, somebody was actually held responsible, even if it may have been
the wrong person.

Firing one senior state executive will send a message to ALL state managers.
I think Romney got everybody's attention.

Perhaps the City should take similar action, firing a manager or two to
assure that, in the future, nobody will pass the buck on safety issues.

- Sal's Dad

Post by D. Kirkpatrick

Post by John F. Carr
The Commissioner of the Department of Conservation and Recreation
resigned after the DCR failed to remove snow on sidewalks along
VFW Parkway in Boston and four high school students were hit by
a truck while walking in the road on the way to school.

I was quoted in the Bulletin Newspaper, a free giveaway in the West
Roxbury area regarding the snow issues at the High School. That
article appeared in this week's edition just 2 days before those kids
got whacked. I postumated that this might happen sooner than later.
I dropped my own son off there just 45 minutes before the kids were
hit. The snow banks at theend of the driveway at VFW parkway have
been so high that he average car cannot see oncoming traffic, which is
already at a curve. Getting out into the VFW there is a dicey
proposition daily.
The highway there is a speedway and kids don't just have to climb over
snow banks - they have to walk in the already-narowed streets along
with the cars.
The city provides school busses at special pool pick up points for
high schoolers but often many kids find it quicker and easier to hop
the MBTA to get there. In some cases kids would have to take a bus
1-2 miles or more in the WRONG direction to get the free school bus,
so they get a T pass and use that instead. The schools issue them
passes for free that are good during the school day and up to 8 pm.
The High School itself is set about 750 or more feet from the roadway
and has a long driveway that is ALWAYS poorly plowed and most oftena
sheet of ice that the kids have to walk on with the bus and auto
traffic that is entering and leaving the school. They NEVER shovel
the single sidewalk that parallels on eside of the driveway.
The nearest MBTA busses still require kids to walk a good 10-15
minutes the rest of the way tot he school.
The #37 (Baker & Vermont) is one. Kids get off and walk a driveway
and down a dirt embankement to the rear of a nursing home and cut
through the parking lot to the VFW parkway. They then have to cross
the highway.
Others take the #36 and get off at one of 2 locations. The short (VA
Hospital) bus they get off at Spring and Baker and walk up Baker to a
stairwell that brings them to the rear of the Stop & Shop store and
they walk through that parking lot to VFW to cross.
If the bus terminates beyond the VA Hospital at the Rivemoor
Industrial area, kids take that to near the end of the line and cut
through the rear of the Home Depot store and then under a bridge that
is used by the Needham commuter rail line. This is not a formal
underpass but a train bridge over a dried up gully that used to drain
wetlands in that area. Its been dried out for many years but is just
high enough a pass for kids to get under it to the school. This is
actually the closest location that the kids have to access any MBTA
bus line. Many kids use this in the mornings and afternoons except in
the worse of weather, and even then there are a few diehards.
Today's accident was a terrible tragedy but one any person could see
coming. I'm surprised that it didn't happen earlier.
As to the crosswalk there which was so publicly shoveledout on the TV
news by state crews, the traffic light there has been out on and off,
and even then people approaching on the VFW parkway in either
direction don't see the signals until they are right on top of them.
Partly due to the fact that this is a tree-lined parkway, the commuter
rail bridge which prevents seeing the signals on approach, and poor
signage.
Unlike most streets that have flasshing yellow lights denoting the
approach to a school zone with speed restrictions, there are no such
lights on the VFW parkway.
These families should sue and sue big.
As to the commissioner getting fired - sacrificial lamb. That is not
the person who makes thedecision where to plow and what sidewalk to
clear. I think we all know that.
DMK

[No Spam]

Post by Sal's Dad
For once, somebody was actually held responsible, even if it may have been
the wrong person.

Yeah! It's always important to hold someone responsible,
even if it's the wrong person. SOMEONE MUST PAY! (But
it doesn't matter who.) As long as we find a scapegoat,
all is well. (That's why the death penalty works so well,
especially in cop-killer cases.) Let's punish someone!
Anyone!

Whenever a kid gets hurt travelling to school, let's just
fire someone. Preferably the kid's math teacher, or maybe
the cafeteria lady. Heads will roll!

[Sal's Dad]

Post by No Spam

Post by Sal's Dad
For once, somebody was actually held responsible, even if it may have been
the wrong person.

Yeah! It's always important to hold someone responsible,
even if it's the wrong person. SOMEONE MUST PAY! (But
it doesn't matter who.) As long as we find a scapegoat,
all is well. (That's why the death penalty works so well,
especially in cop-killer cases.) Let's punish someone!
Anyone!

When a large bureaucracy "drops the ball" it is entirely appropriate for an
agency's most senior manager - who was in a position to address the
problem - to bear full responsibility.

Not the plow driver, or the school custodian, or the street cop - that would
be scapegoating.

[No Spam]

Post by Sal's Dad

Post by No Spam

Post by Sal's Dad
For once, somebody was actually held responsible, even if it may have been
the wrong person.

Yeah! It's always important to hold someone responsible,
even if it's the wrong person. SOMEONE MUST PAY! (But
it doesn't matter who.) As long as we find a scapegoat,
all is well. (That's why the death penalty works so well,
especially in cop-killer cases.) Let's punish someone!
Anyone!

When a large bureaucracy "drops the ball" it is entirely appropriate for
an agency's most senior manager - who was in a position to address the
problem - to bear full responsibility.
Not the plow driver, or the school custodian, or the street cop - that
would be scapegoating.

"even if it may have been the wrong person."

[Sal's Dad]

Post by No Spam

Post by Sal's Dad

Post by No Spam

Post by Sal's Dad
For once, somebody was actually held responsible, even if it may have been
the wrong person.

Yeah! It's always important to hold someone responsible,
even if it's the wrong person. SOMEONE MUST PAY! (But
it doesn't matter who.) As long as we find a scapegoat,
all is well. (That's why the death penalty works so well,
especially in cop-killer cases.) Let's punish someone!
Anyone!

When a large bureaucracy "drops the ball" it is entirely appropriate for
an agency's most senior manager - who was in a position to address the
problem - to bear full responsibility.
Not the plow driver, or the school custodian, or the street cop - that
would be scapegoating.

"even if it may have been the wrong person."

OK - poor wording - perhaps "even if she was not solely to blame" would have
been better.

[John Mara]

Post by No Spam

Post by Sal's Dad

Post by No Spam

Post by Sal's Dad
For once, somebody was actually held responsible, even if it may have been
the wrong person.

Yeah! It's always important to hold someone responsible,
even if it's the wrong person. SOMEONE MUST PAY! (But
it doesn't matter who.) As long as we find a scapegoat,
all is well. (That's why the death penalty works so well,
especially in cop-killer cases.) Let's punish someone!
Anyone!

When a large bureaucracy "drops the ball" it is entirely appropriate for
an agency's most senior manager - who was in a position to address the
problem - to bear full responsibility.
Not the plow driver, or the school custodian, or the street cop - that
would be scapegoating.

"even if it may have been the wrong person."

But how can she be the wrong person? She could have ordered the work done.
More realistically, she could have put a management plan in place that would
have made sure that the work was done. Managers are responsible for making
sure that the people who work for them do the work they are supposed to do.
Which is not to say that other people shouldn't be fired as well.

John Mara

[Ken M.]

She may not have been responsible (I'm not saying she isn't, I'm just
saying don't decide when you don't have all the information) for the
same reason that the director of Transportation for the state isn't
responsible for the fact that your local side street has a pothole. She
doesn't specifically decide what roads to plow.

If the fact that the road wasn't plowed was a result of her ineptitude,
she should be fired. It it was a result of a subordinate's ineptitude,
then they should be fired.

[John F. Carr]

Post by Ken M.
She may not have been responsible (I'm not saying she isn't, I'm just
saying don't decide when you don't have all the information) for the
same reason that the director of Transportation for the state isn't
responsible for the fact that your local side street has a pothole. She
doesn't specifically decide what roads to plow.

She takes the blame for budget allocation except where the legislature
appropriates for specific expenses. For example, if the Memorial Drive
traffic obstruction project took money out of the maintenance budget
the commisioners who diverted the money should be held responsible for
the foreseeable results. (That particular decision may predate her
appointment.)

[D. Kirkpatrick]

Post by Sal's Dad
As usual, there is plenty of blame to spread around.
Why weren't sidewalks and crossings cleared?

They didn't even clear the High School parking lot and approach
driveway until the night before school resumed. And even then all
they did was clear the roadway. The sidewalk - a single side walkway
on the left side of the driveway is NEVER cleared - ever. Kids still
haveto walk in the driveway of the school itself.

Post by Sal's Dad
Why no safe designated routes to school?

Best guess is that they will say they provide busses from designated
pick-ups to the school and that no student should be walking there at
all - which is a load of bull puckey.

Post by Sal's Dad
Why no crossing guard or police presence?

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!

I wish. That school has been there for 25-30 years and there has
never been any live person there. In fact that traffic light at the
crossing is sometimes out of order. I noted it was not working a
couple of days before the accident. I don't know if it was working on
that day. The lights are so obscured by trees that one cannot even
see them until you are on top of them.

Post by Sal's Dad
Why no school zone signage/signals?

Don't know but VFW is a state highway. School zone signs do dress
city streets in the area for other schools.

Post by Sal's Dad
Why did the Superintendent re-open schools if there was no safe passage?

I have several opinions - none of which are devoid of 4-letter words
that are used as descriptives for the dear man.

Post by Sal's Dad
Why didn't principal, who was the person most directly aware and responsible
for the safety of his students, take a real stand?

He did. No one listened.

However there are many things that don't happen in a number of
Boston's high schools.

Post by Sal's Dad
For once, somebody was actually held responsible, even if it may have been
the wrong person.
Firing one senior state executive will send a message to ALL state managers.
I think Romney got everybody's attention.
Perhaps the City should take similar action, firing a manager or two to
assure that, in the future, nobody will pass the buck on safety issues.
- Sal's Dad

[John F. Carr]

Post by D. Kirkpatrick
Unlike most streets that have flasshing yellow lights denoting the
approach to a school zone with speed restrictions, there are no such
lights on the VFW parkway.

This location does not meet state school zone standards because
1. It is a high school.
2. There is a signalized crosswalk.

The City of Boston, but not the DCR, has a sort of exemption
(it may not hold up in court if challenged) waiving these rules.

[D. Kirkpatrick]

Post by John F. Carr
This location does not meet state school zone standards because
1. It is a high school.

Then maybe I need to write a bill. At what age should we no longer be
concerned with the safety of kids trying to get to and from school?

Post by John F. Carr
2. There is a signalized crosswalk.

Which is quite obscured by the trees in that area. You cannot see it
when approcahing it from either direction. I've watched cars scream
right through it, occasionally hamming on brakes when they realized
that there was a red light.

DMK

[John F. Carr]

Post by D. Kirkpatrick

Post by John F. Carr
This location does not meet state school zone standards because
1. It is a high school.

Then maybe I need to write a bill. At what age should we no longer be
concerned with the safety of kids trying to get to and from school?

When they are old enough for society to offer a prayer of
thanks to Darwin after they step in front of a moving vehicle.
In Massachusetts that age is about 15. In some states it is 18.
In California it is 21.

[Ken M.]

fucking idiots

my sidewalks still aren't shoveled either

[John S]

Post by John F. Carr
The Commissioner of the Department of Conservation and Recreation
resigned after the DCR failed to remove snow on sidewalks along
VFW Parkway in Boston and four high school students were hit by
a truck while walking in the road on the way to school.

Without offering sympathies to the MDC lady, news coverage suggests that walkways in front of the school had not been cleared.
In consideration of the city inspectors running around giving people citations for not shoveling the public sidewalks in front
of their property, why was the school not held to the same standard? What prevented the school from clearing its own sidewalk?

Finally, it appears that the primary person responsible for the tragedy of injured students was the driver that hit them.
Apparently, based on some news reporting, that person also admitted that he wasn't bothering to pay full attention to his
driving duties.

[D. Kirkpatrick]

Post by John S
Without offering sympathies to the MDC lady, news coverage suggests that
walkways in front of the school had not been cleared.
In consideration of the city inspectors running around giving people
citations for not shoveling the public sidewalks in front
of their property, why was the school not held to the same standard? What
prevented the school from clearing its own sidewalk?

The school does not have the equipment to do it. They depend on the
city department of public works to clear their driveway. This is the
same people that plow the streets.

The school is set at least 750 feet or more off the roadway - set back
from the street - on land that was owned by the city adjacent to the
former Gardner Street Dump. That dump was later capped and turned
into "Millenium Park".

Post by John S
Finally, it appears that the primary person responsible for the tragedy of
injured students was the driver that hit them.
Apparently, based on some news reporting, that person also admitted that he
wasn't bothering to pay full attention to his
driving duties.

There is a lot of culpability that can be spread around on this one.

However it does point to a general failure in the system.

I have a railroad bridge in my area that is never shoveled. I call
the MBTA and they say its the city. The city says its the MBTA. As
long s they pass the buck nothing gets done.

When I finally researched that in this case, the city is responsible
(the state has bridges and the city does as well it seems), I
complained to the City Council.

They responded that they would pass it along to the DPW. Its been a
week since the storm and nothing has been done yet and I doubt it ever
will. One city councilor was truthful with me and pretty much said
that it was, and will likely never be a priority issue. At least I
commend that honesty.

I am now making it a mission that I am asking my neighborhood
association to take up. The more people we have bitching to the city
and in the press the more likely the squeaky wheel will get the oil.

Hey, we have several tracts of MBTA property in my area too. And that
has also NEVER been shoveled and its traversed by thousands of people
daily.

I guess they are sacred cows as well.

Same story too here. The City says its the MBTA and the MBTA says its
the city. No one knows who should be doing it so nothing gets done.

And we're paying for this.

DMK

[Jay Levitt]

Post by D. Kirkpatrick
One city councilor was truthful with me and pretty much said
that it was, and will likely never be a priority issue. At least I
commend that honesty.
I am now making it a mission that I am asking my neighborhood
association to take up. The more people we have bitching to the city
and in the press the more likely the squeaky wheel will get the oil.

Do a publicity stunt. Rent a U-Haul pickup, shovel the sidewalk
yourself (into the pickup), and deliver the snow to the front door of
the DPW. Let the press know you'll be there and that they should send a
photographer - and just in case they don't, get someone to take photos
yourself.

It'd dovetail nicely with the firing. "And on the lighter side..."

[D. Kirkpatrick]

Post by Jay Levitt
Do a publicity stunt. Rent a U-Haul pickup, shovel the sidewalk
yourself (into the pickup), and deliver the snow to the front door of
the DPW. Let the press know you'll be there and that they should send a
photographer - and just in case they don't, get someone to take photos
yourself.
It'd dovetail nicely with the firing. "And on the lighter side..."

Not a bad stunt.

But not with my "ticker".

DMK

[JMello]

Post by John F. Carr
The Commissioner of the Department of Conservation and Recreation
resigned after the DCR failed to remove snow on sidewalks along
VFW Parkway in Boston and four high school students were hit by
a truck while walking in the road on the way to school.

Can someone please explain why the driver was charged? Failure to pay
attention while driving is not "reckless?"

[John F. Carr]

Post by JMello

Post by John F. Carr
The Commissioner of the Department of Conservation and Recreation
resigned after the DCR failed to remove snow on sidewalks along
VFW Parkway in Boston and four high school students were hit by
a truck while walking in the road on the way to school.

Can someone please explain why the driver was charged?

Do you mean "not charged"? Police say they are still investigating
and they have not assigned blame.

Post by JMello
Failure to pay attention while driving is not "reckless?"

Momentary inattention, or an inadvertent violation of the law in
general, is not reckless. The driver may still be charged with
driving negligently to endanger. The published evidence does
not conclusively assign fault.

[D. Kirkpatrick]

Post by John F. Carr
Do you mean "not charged"? Police say they are still investigating
and they have not assigned blame.

Post by JMello
Failure to pay attention while driving is not "reckless?"

Momentary inattention, or an inadvertent violation of the law in
general, is not reckless. The driver may still be charged with
driving negligently to endanger. The published evidence does
not conclusively assign fault.

And as noted, the darn lights cannot even be seen due to the trees.
They guy may not have even seen the signals.

DMK

[A***@hotmail.com]

Post by John F. Carr
The Commissioner of the Department of Conservation and Recreation
resigned after the DCR failed to remove snow on sidewalks along
VFW Parkway in Boston and four high school students were hit by
a truck while walking in the road on the way to school.

<http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/02/04/romney_asks_for_resignation_of_recreation_commissioner/>

A major problem which hasn't been mentioned (except implicitly by D.
Kirkpatrick in this thread) is that the DCR/MDC has refused to allow T
buses to serve the high school. Of course that isn't a direct cause of
this accident, but direct service might have prevented it, and would
certainly make things easier for hundreds of students.

-Apr

[D. Kirkpatrick]

Post by A***@hotmail.com
A major problem which hasn't been mentioned (except implicitly by D.
Kirkpatrick in this thread) is that the DCR/MDC has refused to allow T
buses to serve the high school. Of course that isn't a direct cause of
this accident, but direct service might have prevented it, and would
certainly make things easier for hundreds of students.

---

I don't know if the T can create any of its special runs that
supplement school busses.

Those special runs are essentially extras that run on existing routes
or bridge several routes.

In order for any bus to make it to the school it would have to depart
from an existing route. Also the school is not right on the VFW
parkway - it sets back off the road by about 750 feet and there is no
place for a bus to pull over. Entering the school property would
place theT in conflict with the contract with the private carrier that
operates the school busses.

The physical location of this building is a part of the problem.

And there is no place to build a pull over for a bus. The darn
building is surrounded by springs and a swamp. In fact the building
is sinking I've been told by a couple of people though I have no first
hand knowledge of that.

When the MBTA depressed the Orange line into the present trench and
rail service to Needham was suspended there was a suggestion that a
platform be created there to allow kids the ability to use the
commuter train to go to and from school with select trains stopping
there during school service hours. That idea was stopped. In
retrospect that might have been a decent plan.

DMK

[John F. Carr]

The DCR has been rewarded by the Governor for its failure.
MassHighway will plow the DCR's major highways, leaving the
DCR with more money for its real mission: patronage jobs.

The Governor should have tried again to transfer DCR roads
to the Highway Department.

[John Mara]

Post by John F. Carr
The DCR has been rewarded by the Governor for its failure.
MassHighway will plow the DCR's major highways, leaving the
DCR with more money for its real mission: patronage jobs.
The Governor should have tried again to transfer DCR roads
to the Highway Department.

So the Highway Department would take over the roads in the state parks and
reservations. A lot of state park roads aren't maintained at all in the
winter. Roads like Memorial Drive intended for recreational driving. Some
were along the line they were taken over by commuters. I'll admit that I
don't see why VFW parkway was ever a recreational parkway.

John Mara

[John F. Carr]

Post by John Mara

Post by John F. Carr
The DCR has been rewarded by the Governor for its failure.
MassHighway will plow the DCR's major highways, leaving the
DCR with more money for its real mission: patronage jobs.
The Governor should have tried again to transfer DCR roads
to the Highway Department.

So the Highway Department would take over the roads in the state parks and
reservations. A lot of state park roads aren't maintained at all in the
winter. Roads like Memorial Drive intended for recreational driving. Some
were along the line they were taken over by commuters.

If the myth of "parks that happen to have a road" was ever true, it
was no longer true by the time the MDC road network was substantially
complete in the 1930s. The "parkways" were the major roads for the
Boston area from the 1930s until the late 1950s and 1960s, when the
Southeast Expressway, I-93, and the Mass. Pike demoted them from the
top of the road hierarchy to the second tier of arterial highways.

In the case of Memorial Drive in particular, the legislature
implicitly repealed any original intent of purely recreational
use when it passed laws in the mid-20th century calling for
improvements (extension to Watertown and grade separation at
what is now JFK Street).

[Ivan]

Now that the Massachusetts Highway Department is taking over the
snow-plowing duties on the state parkways, this would also be a perfect
opportunity to take over the setting of speed limits on these roads.

The parkways are NOT exempt from the federal Manual On Uniform Traffic
Control Devices (MUTCD) laws just because they said so. Under the law
for all public roadways in the state, speed studies must be conducted
and speed regulations must be on kept on file at the Massachusetts
Highway Department. There simply are no exceptions.

Motorists are held accountable for following the law, even on these
"linear parks with roads in them." So should be the state officials.

Ivan

[Jay Levitt]

Post by Ivan
Now that the Massachusetts Highway Department is taking over the
snow-plowing duties on the state parkways, this would also be a perfect
opportunity to take over the setting of speed limits on these roads.

Personally, I'm pretty happy with the lack of legal speed limits there.
The more places that are under the basic speed rule, the more places
that laser is invalid...

[Ivan]

Post by Jay Levitt

Post by Ivan
Now that the Massachusetts Highway Department is taking over the
snow-plowing duties on the state parkways, this would also be a perfect
opportunity to take over the setting of speed limits on these roads.

Personally, I'm pretty happy with the lack of legal speed limits there.
The more places that are under the basic speed rule, the more places
that laser is invalid...

That is true. However, proper speed limit zoning increases voluntary
compliance and reduces the speed differentials between passenger
vehicles. This reduction in speed differentials would greatly improve
the efficiency and the safety of the roads.

Ivan

[A***@hotmail.com]

Post by Jay Levitt
Personally, I'm pretty happy with the lack of legal speed limits there.
The more places that are under the basic speed rule, the more places
that laser is invalid...

How does that work? I know that under the basic speed rule the cop is
supposed to measure your speed for a quarter mile, or an eighth of a
mile in thickly settled areas, while when there's a valid speed
regulation a radar measurement is enough. Does this mean no laser is
allowed in basic speed areas because it's an "instantaneous"
measurement? Do the cops obey this rule, and if not, is it always an
effective defense? Does it also apply to traditional radar?

-Apr

[Jay Levitt]

Post by A***@hotmail.com
I know that under the basic speed rule the cop is
supposed to measure your speed for a quarter mile, or an eighth of a
mile in thickly settled areas, while when there's a valid speed
regulation a radar measurement is enough. Does this mean no laser is
allowed in basic speed areas because it's an "instantaneous"
measurement? Do the cops obey this rule, and if not, is it always an
effective defense? Does it also apply to traditional radar?

I'm quite sure the cops don't obey it. Ivan would know better how
effective it is in court, but from a reading of the law, it seems like
laser would be utterly unenforceable there, unless two laser
measurements were taken over a quarter mile. Radar's different, since
they generally develop a "tracking history" of you over some distance
anyway.

[Ivan]

Post by Jay Levitt

Post by A***@hotmail.com
I know that under the basic speed rule the cop is
supposed to measure your speed for a quarter mile, or an eighth of a
mile in thickly settled areas, while when there's a valid speed
regulation a radar measurement is enough. Does this mean no laser is
allowed in basic speed areas because it's an "instantaneous"
measurement? Do the cops obey this rule, and if not, is it always an
effective defense? Does it also apply to traditional radar?

I'm quite sure the cops don't obey it. Ivan would know better how
effective it is in court, but from a reading of the law, it seems like
laser would be utterly unenforceable there, unless two laser
measurements were taken over a quarter mile. Radar's different, since
they generally develop a "tracking history" of you over some distance
anyway.

Essentially you are both correct. However, both radar and LIDAR provide
"instantaneous" measurements (under a second). The difference is in 1966
(I think) radar received judicial notice regarding target
identification. In "Honeycutt v. the Commonwealth" the courts have
outlined the proper procedure, the so called "tracking history."

Tracking history consists of three (stationary) or four parts (for
moving radar) and one of them is a doppler tone produced by radar guns.
That's how radar gun develop tracking history.

Technically, while LIDAR doesn't require tracking history since the beam
is so narrow the gun is tracking (at least theoretically) the vehicle
the officer is looking at, legally in MA there is no difference between
different speed measuring devices.

I hope this helps,
Ivan

[i***@harvard.edu]

Post by Jay Levitt

Post by Ivan
Now that the Massachusetts Highway Department is taking over the
snow-plowing duties on the state parkways, this would also be a perfect
opportunity to take over the setting of speed limits on these roads.

Personally, I'm pretty happy with the lack of legal speed limits there.
The more places that are under the basic speed rule, the more places
that laser is invalid...

One other point about the speed limits on the parkways.

The speed limits were set by MDC, which had a mandate of preserving the
beauty of these "linear parks with roads in them." That's why MDC
selected speeds that were supposed to allow you to enjoy the bucolic
serenity of the natural surroundings as you leisurely journeyed through
them... But they certainly weren't set to any engineering standards.

Of course there is no cop, judge or insurance agent that would admit
that exceeding these limits is a reflection of your disregard for a very
specific lifestyle choice.

We all know that chicken skin contains considerable unhealthy fat.
At least we can still enjoy a barbequed chicken and not worry about
getting a ticket for not removing the skin from it...

Ivan

[John F. Carr]

The DCR has been rewarded by the Governor for its failure.
MassHighway will plow the DCR's major highways, leaving the
DCR with more money for its real mission: patronage jobs.

The Governor should have tried again to transfer DCR roads
to the Highway Department.

<http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2005/02/07/highway_dept_will_now_plow_state_parkways/?pg=full>

[John McLachlan]

Post by John F. Carr
The Governor should have tried again to transfer DCR roads
to the Highway Department.

That would be mass highways wet dream. They're itching to turn mem &
storrow into more of a highway than the roads they are - get ride of
those useless trees and pave. Can you say 'route 2'.

careful what you wish for.

[Pete from Boston]

Post by John McLachlan

Post by John F. Carr
The Governor should have tried again to transfer DCR roads
to the Highway Department.

That would be mass highways wet dream. They're itching to turn mem &
storrow into more of a highway than the roads they are - get ride of
those useless trees and pave. Can you say 'route 2'.
careful what you wish for.

Do you prefer the abysmal condition (even by "park with a road through
it" standards) the MDC/DCR has kept its roads in over the years, even
when there was no governor with an agenda regarding them?

[John McLachlan]

Post by Pete from Boston
Do you prefer the abysmal condition (even by "park with a road through
it" standards) the MDC/DCR has kept its roads in over the years, even
when there was no governor with an agenda regarding them?

Well, being a pedestrian, I suppose I could advocate closing them both
and turning them into nice bike/walk/blade paths. but I suppose that
isn't going to happen either.

Trouble is neither was designed to be the raceway they've become. So in
a way bad road conditions are a nice way to keep everyone from driving
worse than they do now....

:)

[John F. Carr]

Post by John McLachlan

Post by Pete from Boston
Do you prefer the abysmal condition (even by "park with a road through
it" standards) the MDC/DCR has kept its roads in over the years, even
when there was no governor with an agenda regarding them?

Well, being a pedestrian, I suppose I could advocate closing them both
and turning them into nice bike/walk/blade paths. but I suppose that
isn't going to happen either.

On Memorial Drive it happens every Sunday for half the year.

Post by John McLachlan
Trouble is neither was designed to be the raceway they've become. So in
a way bad road conditions are a nice way to keep everyone from driving
worse than they do now....

By "worse" you mean "faster"? Faster driving is a good thing.
It's a big part of the reason for using a car.

The MDC's report on the parkway system concluded that the system
was not functioning properly because parts of it did not have
traffic jams. That alone was sufficient reason to abolish the MDC.

[Ken M.]

maybe we dont *want* people in cars to have an easier commute?

[Ivan]

Post by Ken M.
maybe we dont *want* people in cars to have an easier commute?

And who are these "we?"

Ivan

[John F. Carr]

Post by Ken M.
maybe we dont *want* people in cars to have an easier commute?

Is that even in doubt? I think it is clearly established
that Cambridge, the MDC, etc. are motivated by malice.

[Ken M.]

my mistake - i should have said "an easier commute BY CAR"

[Pete from Boston]

Post by John F. Carr

Post by Ken M.
maybe we dont *want* people in cars to have an easier commute?

Is that even in doubt? I think it is clearly established
that Cambridge, the MDC, etc. are motivated by malice.

I see. They're just plain evil. See? The president was right. Usually
things are just black and white.

[JMello]

Change that to:

"Maybe we dont *want* suburbanites in cars to have an easier commute
through our neighborhoods?"

I personally would like to see the wholesale decommisioning of
Morrissey Boulevard between Freeport Street and UMass Boston. The
remainder would be rebuilt as a four-lane divided parkway with left
turn slip lanes and adjacent walking and bicycle paths. Same for
McGrath/O'Brien Highway. These two roads still have their
pre-Interstate 93 capacity.

-JMello

[i***@harvard.edu]

Post by JMello
"Maybe we dont *want* suburbanites in cars to have an easier commute
through our neighborhoods?"

Suburban nor urban residednts can make claims on a public property
simply because it is located there.

Ivan

[JMello]

Exactly, and right now the suburbanites believe that they have more of
a claim than adjacent residents.

[John McLachlan]

Post by John F. Carr

Post by John McLachlan
Trouble is neither was designed to be the raceway they've become. So in
a way bad road conditions are a nice way to keep everyone from driving
worse than they do now....

By "worse" you mean "faster"? Faster driving is a good thing.
It's a big part of the reason for using a car.

faster is good - on the appropriate roads. People go 50-60 NOW on a
road with lanes smaller than highway lanes, with sharp curves, sudden
exits, and constant lane merges.

[Ivan]

Post by John McLachlan

Post by John F. Carr
By "worse" you mean "faster"? Faster driving is a good thing.
It's a big part of the reason for using a car.

faster is good - on the appropriate roads. People go 50-60 NOW on a
road with lanes smaller than highway lanes, with sharp curves, sudden
exits, and constant lane merges.

And the only good a 30 mph speed limit does is to generate revenue for
the state and for Commerce Insurance.

Ivan

[John F. Carr]

Post by John McLachlan

Post by John F. Carr
The Governor should have tried again to transfer DCR roads
to the Highway Department.

That would be mass highways wet dream. They're itching to turn mem &
storrow into more of a highway than the roads they are - get ride of
those useless trees and pave. Can you say 'route 2'.
careful what you wish for.

I wish for more pavement on Memorial Drive and Storrow Drive but
it isn't likely to happen under MassHighway or the DCR.

Make Nonantum Road from Charlesbank Road to the pseudo-rotary
a divided boulevard like Soldiers Field Road. The same for
Memorial Drive between Harvard and River Street (ideally,
between Harvard and MIT but at least one building would need
to be cut back for that to work). Trees could be moved to
the median.